>What is the role of punishment and how far should it go?

>Is punishment to reform? For justice? for vengeance? For the public’s safety?

Should we have capital or corporal punishment?

If so where? Should we bring back the cane to schools?

7 comments

  • >Good topic.I think that corporal punishment should be allowed by families but not allowed in schools. If a student is behaving badly he should be expelled only. Domestically, corporal punishment should only occur in small doses.Capital punishment should also be allowed for major crimes like murder in the first and torture. For these types of crimes i don't think rehabilitation is important and the punishment meted out should be dependant upon the wishes of the victim or victims family.

  • >I was against Corporal Punishment until I took a teaching course. I then found out that teacher's hands really are tied. By on large I agree that corporal punishment should be allowed in very small doses if all other measures fail. The problem is how we distinguish between a parent who's smacked their child's bottom, and one who's severely mistreated their child. It's not only about bruising after all. France has been considering a law against psychological violence for some time.However I'm inclined to disagree for children who've already been expelled several times and ended up in a really tough school. In these cases I think schools need the power of corporal punishment (though the best solution would be to have people like bouncers employed to keep discipline and order). And additional reform is also needed to allow expulsion, for at present in the UK if a pupil is expelled the school loses thousands in funding.With regards to capital punishment I think that those people who commit the worst offenses should be medically and permanently stopped from having children (my wife's idea by the way; I think you'll agree it provides a disincentive). But murdering them in turn? We have to think not only about the victim's family but the culprit's family too. They will be the ones hurt if the death sentence is applied. And what about if the culprit was providing for his family? It is the state's role to stop the circle of violence and minimize further hurt.

  • >Providing for his family? I only said for first degree murder and torture.If you're wife's idea was for neuturing could I venture that that is probably only a disincentive from a womans perspective. I don't think really serious offenders are such aspiring dads, so doubt it would have any effect.If the culprits family feels agrieved at having to square the ledger then that is their issue to deal with. Justice is required to be sought for the victims, not the relatives of the offenders.I think expulsion is a much better solution for teachers whose hands are tied rather than corporal punishment. for kids who constantly gets expelled from school, it is probably a sign that they don't like being at school, and why force them to go in that case.this is where the fundametalist attitude of educators is in error. better to ask the trouble making kids what they would prefer to do to prepare themselves for the future and then have them pursue that, i.e. trade course, arts course, etc.it shouldn't be a problem distinguishing between smacking and abuse. closed fist and weapons are abuse.

  • >I didn't mean the murderer could be providing for his/her family through the act of murder (for although this is true, it is of course a source of income we should seek to cut). I meant maybe they're the only person with a job in the family.I think my wife's idea was actually castration (sorry I forgot to say that). So I'm thinking this would have an effect. But the main reason for my suggestion of it was not because it's a disincentive but rather due to Darwinian logic. Murderers are not likely to make great parents, and even if they do what if some of that viciousness is contained in genes?Justice is not simply for the victims. It is for society as a whole. Why should the culprits relatives suffer any more than necessary if they never had anything to do with the culprit's act? It would turn governments and victims into murderers, and create a further desire for justice and vengeance from the family of the culprit, who become the victims. "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."Education needs to be compulsory if we are to avoid the creation of an under class. Besides, if we let children quit school what makes you think they'll want to work? All you've taught them is that they can get their own way."it shouldn't be a problem distinguishing between smacking and abuse. closed fist and weapons are abuse." I'm afraid it isn't as simple as this, though I'm sure every social worker wished it was. Neglect, emotional, physical and sexual abuse are all types that may be hard to identify, for even bruises can be covered by clothing. What authority would ever ask a child to take off his/her shirt to prove abuse? How many children feel brave enough to report abuse?

  • >If the murderer is the only person in the family with a job then, once he is convicted he will be either in prison for a long time orkilled by death penalty. Either way, there will be no income being earnt by him.I figured it was darwinian logic. i really dislike darwinian logic.I think castration is a great punishment for child rapists and serial rapists. Is there such a thing as first degree rape? If so, it should be for this.I don't believe in it as a disincentive or as a prevention method of passing on dodgy genes (which is a fairly far-fetched claim. The children of murderers who become murderers themselves must be close to about 1%).I think it is a good idea because it can give the victim a feeling of restoration and fairness.If the culprit murdered someone, then the victim and the victims family have been affected. Hence that the murdered should die, and the fact that the culprits family loses a family member is only equal to what the victim's family had to go through.Being uneducated results in membership of the underclass? Have you tried paying a builder, plumber, mechanic, in Luxembourg recently? These suckers earn more than me (or what i used too).Being unskilled is what makes an underclass.If we let children quit school want makes me think they will want to work? I don't think anyone wants to work. If we all won euromillions i suspect most of us would quit our jobs. The reason the children will want to work is because they have to in order to feed themselves, buy the gadgets that motivate them, enjoy their weekends with their friends etc,.What we've taught them is not that they can get their own way, but that their lives are in their own hands.The final point about domestic abuse against children is difficult. They are vulnerable and nothing can be done except to monitor any symptoms that may appear, either physical bruises or behavioural etc,. But it is hard to monitor 100% without having a police state where everything is done via big brother.I think the best solution involves ensuring that strong communities exist. Communities are the things most lacking in modern society in my opinion.In fact this may be a topic that will get posted itself in future.

  • >You're right about the person losing the job anyway if he goes to prison. In fact taking money into perspective, that's another argument for the death penalty: that it's cheaper. Don't know what I was thinking.But nonetheless I still disagree with capital punishment. The link between murder and genetics has not been proven beyond doubt. But scientists at the Universal Genome Centre in California claim to have identified a "murder gene" in the y chromozone last year. The consensus view is still that a mixture of genes and experience, especially in early life, dictates the level of individual aggresion a person feels. Hence as a murderer is likely to be a bad parent they are more likely to give a child more chance of becoming a murderer than any other child. The 1% figure is interesting (where did you get it from?). But then again if you got it in rich Western societies where the murder rate is incredibly low anyway this would affect the figure.By the way if you passed a bill in favour of capital punishment (say you were the PM of New Zealand) and you later found that the first person executed was innocent, how would you feel? Bare in mind too that there is no such thing as a humane method of putting someone to death. The mental suffering of the victim must be incredible."that the culprits family loses a family member is only equal to what the victim's family had to go through." If person A kills someone in person B's family what right does person C have to go and kill someone in person A's family? Do you think it evens the score? As if the families of person A and B were their own personal property to be taken away as you would take a toy away from a child?And then after that we have to think about all the nitty gritty details. What would you feel if your son came to you one day and said to you "Dad, I've taken a job as an executioner."?On the education part:I think it a bit harsh to call all builders, plumbers and mechanics uneducated. I doubt they're all school dropouts, especially with us being in Luxembourg. And do you not think schools give people skills, or hone existing ones? Would you hire a half illiterate 16 year old who'd been expelled from every school he'd/she'd ever been to? People do not all feel the need to get jobs if they're able to live off of benefits and/or crime and/or their families. But the majority of people do want to be employed. Indeed one of the biggest causes of depression is unemployment. Most lottery winners hardly even change their lifestyle. The ones that do simply act in a way they had wanted to act already but felt constrained against taking the risk e.g. changing jobs, starting their own business or something like that.On the importance of communities I can open a debate if you like, but I think everyone will agree with you that close knit communities are a good thing.

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